The understanding that "Wisdom" in Prov. 8:22-30 is, in reality, figurative of Jesus in his pre-human existence has always existed in the majority of churches that call themselves Christian. It was commonly noted in the writings of the Church Fathers of the first centuries of Christianity (including such noted scholars as Origen, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, etc.) Many Bible scholars (trinitarians included) have even said that this connection was made in the New Testament at 1 Cor. 1:24. For a list of quotes from trinitarian scholars admitting this, see:
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/10/prov-822-30.html
So, if one was to accept the view of the majority of those in "traditional" Christendom throughout the Christian era, you will accept the understanding that "Wisdom" at Prov. 8:22-30 refers to the Messiah.
And if you accept that, then it is clear that the Messiah was created (at least there was a time when he was brought into existence by the Father, Jehovah) before the rest of creation. Note the following TRINITARIAN translations of Prov. 8:22:
1. "The LORD [Jehovah] CREATED me at the beginning of his work" - RSV, and NRSV. (Footnote in NRSV says "Or [created] me as the beginning [of his work].").
2."The LORD MADE me..." - MLB
3."The Lord FORMED me..." - Living Bible.
4. "I was MADE in the very beginning." - Good News Bible.
5."Yahweh [Jehovah] CREATED me..." - Jerusalem Bible and NJB.
6."The LORD CREATED me..." - New English Bible and REB.
7."Jehovah FRAMED me first" - Byington.
8."The LORD CREATED me..." - The Reader's Digest Bible, 1982.
9."I was the first thing MADE, long ago in the beginning." - Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version, World Bible Translation Center, 1992.
10."The Eternal [Jehovah] FORMED me first of his creation" - Moffatt.
11."The Lord MADE me the beginning [arkhe] of his ways for his works" - The Septuagint, Zondervan, 1976.
12."The LORD CREATED me as the first of his creations" - Holy Bible From the Ancient Eastern Text
It may be that figures of speech and personification sometimes appear to be carried too far for our tastes today. But if this scripture only shows a quality personified, but not actually a person (as some anti-Watchtower publications claim), how can we explain that "Wisdom" (at Prov. 8:22-30) came into existence before the rest of creation?
The scriptures show that Jehovah God (and only Jehovah God) has always existed (Ps. 90:2). Since he is from eternity and has obviously always been wise, then Jehovah's own personal wisdom has always existed; it never was created or produced. And since wisdom cannot exist apart from a personality who is capable of using it, and, since the "Wisdom" of Prov. 8:22-30 came into existence before the rest of creation, it cannot represent the wisdom of any other creature (whether angels or men) but a "firstborn Son". (John 1:18; Rev. 3:14; Col. 1:15)
For more, see:
BWF - 'Beginning,' 'Wisdom,' and 'Firstborn'
Prov. 8:22-30 "Wisdom" and Christ
Trinity Scripture Index
Search For Bible Truths - ARCHIVE
Scriptures Index
Search For Bible Truths - Search Guide
.jpg)
.jpg)
.jpg)
.jpg)
.jpg)
.jpg)
Saturday, February 6, 2010
Is the ‘speaking in tongues’ that is done today the same as that done by first-century Christians?
In the first century, the focus of the ability to "speak in tongues" was to accomplish the international work of witnessing that Jesus had commissioned his followers to do. (Acts 1:8; 2:1-11; Matt. 28:19) Yet, do those who claim to "speak in tongues" today actually use this ability for this purpose? No.
Also in the first century, when Christians `spoke in tongues', what they said had meaning to people who knew those languages. (Acts 2:4, 8) Today, people who supposedly `speak in tongues' usually just provide an outburst of unintelligible sounds.
What Paul said to the first-century Christians in 1 Cor. 13:8-10 indicates that the genuine speaking in tongues "ceased" at that time.
TONGUES, SPEAKING IN (INDEX; Watchtower Online Library)
Tongues, Speaking in (rs p. 400-p. 405; Watchtower Online Library)
Speaking in Tongues—Is It From God? (The Watchtower—2010; Watchtower Online Library)
Also in the first century, when Christians `spoke in tongues', what they said had meaning to people who knew those languages. (Acts 2:4, 8) Today, people who supposedly `speak in tongues' usually just provide an outburst of unintelligible sounds.
What Paul said to the first-century Christians in 1 Cor. 13:8-10 indicates that the genuine speaking in tongues "ceased" at that time.
TONGUES, SPEAKING IN (INDEX; Watchtower Online Library)
Tongues, Speaking in (rs p. 400-p. 405; Watchtower Online Library)
Speaking in Tongues—Is It From God? (The Watchtower—2010; Watchtower Online Library)
Friday, February 5, 2010
Should Idols / Icons be used in worship?
The Bible clearly shows that they should not be used in worship:
“Guard yourselves from idols.” (1 John 5:21)
“What agreement does God’s temple have with idols?” (2 Corinthians 6:16)
Notice what God Himself said about idols:
Ex. 20:4, 5: "You shall not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. For I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God." (JB)
For more, see:
Should Idols / Icons be used in worship?
Should Images, "Patron Saints" or the Rosary be used in prayer?
Search For Bible Truths - ARCHIVE
Scriptures Index
Search For Bible Truths - Search Guide
“Guard yourselves from idols.” (1 John 5:21)
“What agreement does God’s temple have with idols?” (2 Corinthians 6:16)
Notice what God Himself said about idols:
Ex. 20:4, 5: "You shall not make yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything in heaven or on earth beneath or in the waters under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. For I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God." (JB)
For more, see:
Should Idols / Icons be used in worship?
Should Images, "Patron Saints" or the Rosary be used in prayer?
Search For Bible Truths - ARCHIVE
Scriptures Index
Search For Bible Truths - Search Guide
Who were the "sons of God" mentioned in Genesis 6:2?
The Bible mentions that they were disobedient angels that left their place in heaven during the time of Noah, came down to the earth, and took on fleshly bodies:
"The angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place..." (Jude 6)
Their reason for doing this is explained in the following scripture:
“The sons of the true God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose.” (Genesis 6:2)
Supporting the conclusion that these were ANGELIC "sons of God" is the apostle Peter’s references to “the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days” (1 Pet. 3:19, 20), and to “the angels that sinned,” mentioned in connection with the “ancient world” of Noah’s time. (2 Pet. 2:4, 5)
For more, see:
What is an angel?
Angels - Why are they referred to as male in the Bible?
Angels
Angels - Who They Are
The Truth About Angels
Angels How They Affect Us
How Angels Can Help You
Do Humans Become Angels When They Die?
Spirit Creatures How They Affect Us
What Can Angels Do for You?
Does God Take Children to Become Angels in Heaven?
Do You Have a Guardian Angel?
Search For Bible Truths - ARCHIVE
Scriptures Index
Search For Bible Truths - Search Guide
"The angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place..." (Jude 6)
Their reason for doing this is explained in the following scripture:
“The sons of the true God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose.” (Genesis 6:2)
Supporting the conclusion that these were ANGELIC "sons of God" is the apostle Peter’s references to “the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days” (1 Pet. 3:19, 20), and to “the angels that sinned,” mentioned in connection with the “ancient world” of Noah’s time. (2 Pet. 2:4, 5)
For more, see:
What is an angel?
Angels - Why are they referred to as male in the Bible?
Angels
Angels - Who They Are
The Truth About Angels
Angels How They Affect Us
How Angels Can Help You
Do Humans Become Angels When They Die?
Spirit Creatures How They Affect Us
What Can Angels Do for You?
Does God Take Children to Become Angels in Heaven?
Do You Have a Guardian Angel?
Search For Bible Truths - ARCHIVE
Scriptures Index
Search For Bible Truths - Search Guide
Wednesday, February 3, 2010
Is God Always Superior to Jesus?
The Bible says that "the head of the Christ is God" in the same way that "the head of every man is the Christ." (1 Corinthians 11:3)
Note what Jesus said:
"The Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28)
“Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place." (Luke 22:42)
"I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me." (John 6:38)
"What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me." (John 7:16)
"Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing." (John 5:19)
"I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me." (John 5:30)
"For from God (note how Jesus phrases God as a separate person from himself) I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth." (John 8:42)
"Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." (Mt. 24:36)
For more, see:
Is God Always Superior to Jesus?
Who Created Jesus?
Trinity Scripture Index
Search For Bible Truths - ARCHIVE
Scriptures Index
Search For Bible Truths - Search Guide
Note what Jesus said:
"The Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28)
“Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place." (Luke 22:42)
"I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me." (John 6:38)
"What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me." (John 7:16)
"Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing." (John 5:19)
"I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me." (John 5:30)
"For from God (note how Jesus phrases God as a separate person from himself) I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth." (John 8:42)
"Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." (Mt. 24:36)
For more, see:
Is God Always Superior to Jesus?
Who Created Jesus?
Trinity Scripture Index
Search For Bible Truths - ARCHIVE
Scriptures Index
Search For Bible Truths - Search Guide
How can Jesus be God and also sit at His right hand?
Symbolically, the right hand was considered to be of great importance in the Bible. (Gen. 48:13-20; Mt 25:33; Rev. 1:16, 20; 2:1) To be on the right hand of a ruler was to have the most important position, next to the ruler himself. However, the person who was on the right hand of the ruler was obviously not the ruler himself.
Psalms 110:1, Acts 7:55,56; Romans 8:34 and 1 Peter 3:22 all mention Jesus being at (not just the Father's right hand, but) God's right hand. Just as the example of the person above who was on the right hand of the ruler but clearly was not the ruler himself, Jesus being at God's right hand is a description of him being a separate person to a secondary position from God.
Acts 5:31 also says that, "God EXALTED him at his right hand." If Jesus was God, how could he be exalted any further?
For more, see:
Does the Bible phrase Jesus as a separate person from God?
Is God Always Superior to Jesus? - Jesus Distinguished From God
Trinity Scripture Index
Search For Bible Truths - ARCHIVE
Scriptures Index
Search For Bible Truths - Search Guide
Psalms 110:1, Acts 7:55,56; Romans 8:34 and 1 Peter 3:22 all mention Jesus being at (not just the Father's right hand, but) God's right hand. Just as the example of the person above who was on the right hand of the ruler but clearly was not the ruler himself, Jesus being at God's right hand is a description of him being a separate person to a secondary position from God.
Acts 5:31 also says that, "God EXALTED him at his right hand." If Jesus was God, how could he be exalted any further?
For more, see:
Does the Bible phrase Jesus as a separate person from God?
Is God Always Superior to Jesus? - Jesus Distinguished From God
Trinity Scripture Index
Search For Bible Truths - ARCHIVE
Scriptures Index
Search For Bible Truths - Search Guide
Questions for those who believe in the Trinity
Questions for those who believe in the Trinity:
Why do many encyclopedias, dictionaries and other sources (including Sir Isaac Newton) say that the "Trinity was a pagan corruption imposed on Christianity in the fourth century by Athanasius"?
Why do NUMEROUS encyclopedias agree that "... the doctrine of the Trinity was of gradual and comparatively late formation; that it had its origin in a source entirely foreign from that of the Jewish and Christian scriptures; that it grew up, and was ingrafted on Christianity"?
If Jesus is really God, would he have a Head (i.e., someone over him with more authority)? (1 Cor. 11:3)
How come Jesus subjects himself to God? (1 Cor. 15:27, 28)
How come these scriptures show that God is superior to Jesus?
If Jesus is God, how can Christ be the "FIRSTBORN of all creation"? (Colossians 1:15)
Why does Rev. 3:14 say that Jesus is "the beginning of the creation of God"?
Why does John 1:18 say that Jesus is God's "only BEGOTTEN Son"? ASV
How can Jesus be God and HAVE a God at the same time? (2 Cor. 1:3; Eph 1:3; Col 1:3; Mark 15:34; John 17:1-3; etc. Also in heaven, Rev. 3:12)
How can Jesus be God and also sit at His right hand?
Why do these scriptures phrase Jesus as a separate person from God? (John 20:17; John 14:1; Mark 10:18; John 17:1-3; Also in heaven, 1 Cor. 11:3 and Luke 22:69)
How can Jesus and the Father be God if only the Father has knowledge of the "day and hour"? (Mt. 24:36)
Why does Micah 5:2 say that Jesus' ORIGIN was “from early times”?
Why does Proverbs 8:22-31 show that the Messiah was CREATED/PRODUCED by God?
If Jesus is God, why is it that God resurrected Jesus? (Acts 2:32)
Why was Jesus exalted (not to become God Himself, but) to a secondary position...the "right hand OF God"? (Acts 2:33)
If Jesus is God why did he not come in his own name? (John 5:41-44)
Why did Jesus call the "Father...the only true God"? (John 17:3)
How could Jesus be tempted by Satan when God cannot be tempted with evil? (James 1:13)
How could Jesus be God when Jesus died and yet the Bible says that God cannot die? (Hab. 1:12; 1 Tim. 6:16)
How can Jesus be God if "no man has seen God at any time"? (John 1:18)
If Jesus is God, why does Heb. 5:8 say that he is "a son" who "learned obedience from the things he suffered"?
If God and Jesus really are equal, then why does the Bible phrase them as "Father" and "Son"?
Is there even one scripture which clearly defines the Trinity?
Where is there in Scripture a vision, dream, or CLEAR description wherein God is shown as three persons?
Where are clear scriptures where Jesus is called "God the Son," (equal to those declaring "God, the Father)?
Where in Scripture is God ever described using the word "three"?
Holy Spirit
Why do these quotes from Trinitarians admit that the Holy Spirit is not God but rather is a Force from God?
If the Holy Spirit has always been the third person in a triune God, then why would Jews instructed in the OT scriptures and in the teachings of John the Baptist, NOT EVEN KNOW WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS? (Acts 19:2)
If the Holy Spirit is God, then why isn't the Holy Spirit given equal description in the Bible?
Why didn't Jesus ever teach that the Holy Spirit was God along with the Father and Son?
Why does the Bible describe the Holy Spirit as an "it"?
Why does the Bible describe the Holy Spirit as a thing that can be poured out into portions?
Why is the holy spirit nameless and indistinguishable from all of the other holy spirits?
If the Holy Spirit has always been the third person in a triune God, then why did the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD disregard the Holy Spirit as a member of the Godhead when they made Jesus 'God' in 325 AD? Why did they wait until the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD to include the Holy Spirit in the formula?
If the Holy Spirit is really a person, wouldn't the water and blood be persons too according to Trinitarian reasoning and 1 John 5:8?
If the holy spirit really is a person, then why is it sandwiched between a list of QUALITIES at 2 Cor. 6:6?
Why is it that nowhere in the Bible is the Holy Spirit ever said to be an equal member of a trinity?
Why is it that nowhere is it mentioned in the Bible the words, "God, the Holy Spirit," or "The Holy Spirit is God"?
Why is it that there is never mentioned a vision, dream or clear description in scripture wherein God and the Holy Spirit are shown as the same person?
Why do many encyclopedias, dictionaries and other sources (including Sir Isaac Newton) say that the "Trinity was a pagan corruption imposed on Christianity in the fourth century by Athanasius"?
Why do NUMEROUS encyclopedias agree that "... the doctrine of the Trinity was of gradual and comparatively late formation; that it had its origin in a source entirely foreign from that of the Jewish and Christian scriptures; that it grew up, and was ingrafted on Christianity"?
If Jesus is really God, would he have a Head (i.e., someone over him with more authority)? (1 Cor. 11:3)
How come Jesus subjects himself to God? (1 Cor. 15:27, 28)
How come these scriptures show that God is superior to Jesus?
If Jesus is God, how can Christ be the "FIRSTBORN of all creation"? (Colossians 1:15)
Why does Rev. 3:14 say that Jesus is "the beginning of the creation of God"?
Why does John 1:18 say that Jesus is God's "only BEGOTTEN Son"? ASV
How can Jesus be God and HAVE a God at the same time? (2 Cor. 1:3; Eph 1:3; Col 1:3; Mark 15:34; John 17:1-3; etc. Also in heaven, Rev. 3:12)
How can Jesus be God and also sit at His right hand?
Why do these scriptures phrase Jesus as a separate person from God? (John 20:17; John 14:1; Mark 10:18; John 17:1-3; Also in heaven, 1 Cor. 11:3 and Luke 22:69)
How can Jesus and the Father be God if only the Father has knowledge of the "day and hour"? (Mt. 24:36)
Why does Micah 5:2 say that Jesus' ORIGIN was “from early times”?
Why does Proverbs 8:22-31 show that the Messiah was CREATED/PRODUCED by God?
If Jesus is God, why is it that God resurrected Jesus? (Acts 2:32)
Why was Jesus exalted (not to become God Himself, but) to a secondary position...the "right hand OF God"? (Acts 2:33)
If Jesus is God why did he not come in his own name? (John 5:41-44)
Why did Jesus call the "Father...the only true God"? (John 17:3)
How could Jesus be tempted by Satan when God cannot be tempted with evil? (James 1:13)
How could Jesus be God when Jesus died and yet the Bible says that God cannot die? (Hab. 1:12; 1 Tim. 6:16)
How can Jesus be God if "no man has seen God at any time"? (John 1:18)
If Jesus is God, why does Heb. 5:8 say that he is "a son" who "learned obedience from the things he suffered"?
If God and Jesus really are equal, then why does the Bible phrase them as "Father" and "Son"?
Is there even one scripture which clearly defines the Trinity?
Where is there in Scripture a vision, dream, or CLEAR description wherein God is shown as three persons?
Where are clear scriptures where Jesus is called "God the Son," (equal to those declaring "God, the Father)?
Where in Scripture is God ever described using the word "three"?
Holy Spirit
Why do these quotes from Trinitarians admit that the Holy Spirit is not God but rather is a Force from God?
If the Holy Spirit has always been the third person in a triune God, then why would Jews instructed in the OT scriptures and in the teachings of John the Baptist, NOT EVEN KNOW WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS? (Acts 19:2)
If the Holy Spirit is God, then why isn't the Holy Spirit given equal description in the Bible?
Why didn't Jesus ever teach that the Holy Spirit was God along with the Father and Son?
Why does the Bible describe the Holy Spirit as an "it"?
Why does the Bible describe the Holy Spirit as a thing that can be poured out into portions?
Why is the holy spirit nameless and indistinguishable from all of the other holy spirits?
If the Holy Spirit has always been the third person in a triune God, then why did the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD disregard the Holy Spirit as a member of the Godhead when they made Jesus 'God' in 325 AD? Why did they wait until the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD to include the Holy Spirit in the formula?
If the Holy Spirit is really a person, wouldn't the water and blood be persons too according to Trinitarian reasoning and 1 John 5:8?
If the holy spirit really is a person, then why is it sandwiched between a list of QUALITIES at 2 Cor. 6:6?
Why is it that nowhere in the Bible is the Holy Spirit ever said to be an equal member of a trinity?
Why is it that nowhere is it mentioned in the Bible the words, "God, the Holy Spirit," or "The Holy Spirit is God"?
Why is it that there is never mentioned a vision, dream or clear description in scripture wherein God and the Holy Spirit are shown as the same person?
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)